datapad
Friday, April 22, 2005
for those who have read my previous post and xinyang's corresponding post, here's the inevitable ensuing msn conversation: |agentquantum| says: the goal of every religion is peace, but how can peace be established when there is more than one religion, and followers of all religions feel that their own religion is the one true creed? |agentquantum| says: in this aspect i do not think religious harmony is possible. --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: read on |agentquantum| says: when religions come into conflict with each other, and they oftentimes do, it is where people simply cannot agree with each other because there is no point of contention- it is all based on belief |agentquantum| says: for a system where there is only one religon... fine |agentquantum| says: if the people can be deceived by a system of lies into following rules and keeping the peace i guess thats alright for some --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i have concluded that there is only one god |agentquantum| says: but in the real world --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: and all the prophets are wrong |agentquantum| says: thats where most religions will come into conflict --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: conflict come when they think there is one god, and all the other prophets are wrong --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: there is a very big difference |agentquantum| says: it is still morally wrong to deceive the masses with lies of religion and threats of eternal damnation just so that peace will be in order |agentquantum| says: imho it is no diff from communism --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i do not agree |agentquantum| says: why not we live in harmony, without religion, for the purpose of the advancement of mankind as opposed to salvation? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it is not deceit |agentquantum| says: it is a thoroughly unqualified assumption based on antiquated superstittions. --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: we do not know |agentquantum| says: but we have no evidence nor logical rationale to believe in a god --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: we have no evidence not to |agentquantum| says: humanism is a far nobler ideal to strive towards than that of a fairytale salvation --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: humanism --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it is a fairy tale too |agentquantum| says: ockham's razor... there is no reason to believe in it. we don't need it. by assuming it is true is an outright lie. |agentquantum| says: what do you mean |agentquantum| says: humanism is a fairy tale? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: yes |agentquantum| says: the progress of humanism is only obstructed by religion and humankind's reluctance to shed their beliefs |agentquantum| says: i dont understand you --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: what would the world be without divine justice --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: can the police force be strong enough to enfore the law> |agentquantum| says: why not? is our police force divinely sanctioned to uphold peace? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: can we make sure the govt do not abuse their power |agentquantum| says: our government is not bound by religion |agentquantum| says: even the american government practices some distinction between church and state --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: we must realise that humans are all drawn to the materials --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: only by divine justice can we be swayed away from them, and keep the society in order |agentquantum| says: only by divine justice? |agentquantum| says: then id say its very sad for the human race --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it is |agentquantum| says: only a possibly fictitious character can keep the most intelligent species on the face of the earth in line? |agentquantum| says: that is being unduly pessimistic |agentquantum| says: i think not. |agentquantum| says: we can have rules yes --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: mencius thinks so too |agentquantum| says: and people will have to adhere to the rules under the law --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: mencius believes that humans are kind in nature |agentquantum| says: but divine justice does not have to play a part --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it is stronger |agentquantum| says: throughout the ages, scientific progress has always been hindered by religion |agentquantum| says: science and religion are at cross purposes with each other |agentquantum| says: i dont see how religion can bring about scientific progress --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: what makes you think that science is the corrct way to go? |agentquantum| says: because it is the most accurate way that we can learn about our universe --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i have to admit that scientific progress is vital now that we are screwing up the earth badly |agentquantum| says: it is the objective truth. --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it is not |agentquantum| says: religion has absolutely no logical basis in reality |agentquantum| says: why not., --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science can explain, but they cannot control |agentquantum| says: control what? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i agree the science will lead to to the ultimate undertsanding of the universe |agentquantum| says: of course we are unable to control the universe --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: but in order for us to do anything with the science we learn we must have principles |agentquantum| says: uhhuh |agentquantum| says: your point? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: and science does not teach principles |agentquantum| says: love for humanity is a very good principle i daresay --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i daresay many do not have it |agentquantum| says: science is perfectly compatible with secular humanism |agentquantum| says: thats because of religion. --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science is perfectly compatible with destruction |agentquantum| says: they love god more than they love their fellow men, they have become selfish, they live for an ideal that might never occur to them |agentquantum| says: religion is perfectly compatible with destruction of all other religions |agentquantum| says: and whats the link with science and destruction? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: haha --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i admit that i was wrong in that statement --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: there will always be people who are buay song |agentquantum| says: i know |agentquantum| says: its a macrocosmic demonstration of the uncertainty principle |agentquantum| says: just how utterly screwed up theology has become can be seen in the election of cardinal joseph ratzinger to position of pope |agentquantum| says: it is widely believed that he is the world's most vehement opponent of secularism --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: sigh --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i feel that there is a part in us that would wonder about the things that science that cannot explain |agentquantum| says: thats einstein speaking too --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: this casues social unrest and distraction |agentquantum| says: but i think thats exactly the part that causes us to strive to understand the things we cannot explain --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science cannot explain what happens after we die |agentquantum| says: what do you mean "after we die"? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science cannot explain what happens before we are born |agentquantum| says: i dont think there's anything that cannot be explained by science --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science cannot explain why life is unfair |agentquantum| says: you are assuming the existence of a soul here --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: yes --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i am |agentquantum| says: life is unfair because people choose to perceive it that way and because of luck --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: a fallacious assumption too, i know |agentquantum| says: well, there might exist a spiritual energy, like chi, that might one day be explained by science |agentquantum| says: that is what i think |agentquantum| says: based on current orgone research and such --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: science can only explain the thing that exist |agentquantum| says: and it cant explain...? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: but it cannot explain what we want to know --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: or rather, many are unprepared for the truth |agentquantum| says: what do you mean |agentquantum| says: what do we want to know? |agentquantum| says: yeah, that is true |agentquantum| says: many are uprepapred |agentquantum| says: but it is nevertheless something we will have to face up to in our pursuit for objective truth --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: i am not saying that we should not try to find the truth --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: but we must come up with an alternative for those who cannot accept it |agentquantum| says: by rejecting the facts and succumbing to mere intuitive reasoning we are committing the same fallacy as our long time ancestors did, religion --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: religion does not need to interfere with science |agentquantum| says: we are all sentient intelligent human beings, and i feel that we all have it within us to accept the truh- after all, any other way would merely be a lie. --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: in fact, buddhism, which believes in divine justice, does not hinder science |agentquantum| says: ...so far --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: we must see that past the faults of religion --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: we should not commit to the same belief that something is able to explain everything --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: the truth lies in philosophy |agentquantum| says: that is an unqualified assumption |agentquantum| says: it is logical to assume that science can explain everything |agentquantum| says: if not then how can the explainable and the unexplainable coexist together? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: the unexplainable need no explanation --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: it only needs reasoning --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: and the unexplainables cannot defy science because science explains verything else |agentquantum| says: what do you mean by the unexplainable |agentquantum| says: example? --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: do you even exist |agentquantum| says: well, based on all available knowledge now, yes i do --<<{teenage mutant ninja elephant}>>-- "all your base are belong to me." ~~ a japanese proton says: not to me |agentquantum| says: ok so you're talking philosophy |agentquantum| says: well, i think that as a matter of fact is possible to be subjected to science basically, what he is saying at the end is purely philosophy- the part about me not existing to him concerns ideas such as the brain in the vat argument, or the solipsist argument. before i go on i'll have to say that in a sense, everything exists. even in the remote possibility that the brain in the vat concept is true, i still exist as part of his mental construct- just as god exists today as a fairytale figure guiding the masses to fictitious eternal salvation. however, i feel that it is meaningless to talk about philosophical ideas that prove to be completely untestable to science or observable in reality- talking about the possibility of solipsism or brains-in-the-vat when they have no effects whatsoever on our observable reality amounts to nothing more than wild speculation- in itself, it's the same fallacy as suggesting that there is a transcendent omnipotent creator who can never ever be observed. simple ockham's razor at work here- if it's got nothing to do with reality, and if it doesn't affect the events in our universe in any way or another, then there's no point talking about it-- they have no "real" meaning whatsoever. |